Vision and strategy and building a delightful experience are all necessary pieces of the product manager playbook. But Steven Haines says it’s not enough. Product leaders need business acumen, the oxygen that keeps your product alive.

As founder of Sequent Learning Networks and the Business Acumen Institute, Steven Haines has trained countless leaders in the fields of business and product management. In this episode, he explains what he sees as the primary challenge to their success and offers insights in finding the solution.

Too many product leaders, he explains, come to the product manager role bearing excess baggage from their functional paradigms. They come into a job that requires them to analyze data, detect industry signals, and manage internal operations. All these are different functions. We need to get them thinking in these different ways, as opposed to the function from which they’ve come.

“Senior executives need to create an environment that encourages this nurturing or cultivation of talent,” Steven adds, “to include key dimensions of business acumen. Go beyond understanding your markets and your customers. Think about how they operate and their mindset. Leveling up those skills is critical.”

Catch the entire podcast to hear all of Steven’s advice on developing business acumen in product leaders – not just for the hand-picked “rising stars,” but creating the tide that raises entire cohorts of future business leaders.

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Paul [00:00:19] Hello and welcome to Project Momentum, where we hope to entertain, educate, and celebrate the amazing product people who are helping to shape our community’s way ahead. My name is Paul Gebel and I’m the Director of Product Innovation at ITX. Along with my co-host, Sean Flaherty, and our amazing production team and occasional guest host, we record and release a conversation with a product thought leader, writer, speaker, or maker who has something to share with the community every two weeks.

Paul [00:00:43] Hey, everyone. Steven Haines has been a product hero of mine since the first step I took on my product management journey. I think the way I was introduced to his work was when I searched up product management when looking for books on the tradecraft and The Product Manager’s Desk Reference was probably the first result I found. Since then, I’ve admired Steven’s wit and wisdom and I’m honored to share our conversation with you today.

Paul [00:01:05] Well hello and welcome to the podcast. Today, we are really excited to be joined by Steven Haines. He is a world-renowned author, speaker, and thought leader in the areas of product management and business acumen. As the founder of Sequent Learning Networks and the Business Acumen Institute, he’s trained tens of thousands of people who work in product management and other functions. His industry-defining work has contributed to the transformation of mindsets, methods, and corporate competitiveness. Steven’s books include The Product Manager’s Desk Reference, editions one through three, The Product Manager’s Survival Guide, Managing Product Management, and the Business Acumen Handbook. Steven, welcome to the show. So happy to have you.

Steven [00:01:40] Great to be here.

Paul [00:01:41] Outstanding. Well, you’ve always struck me as a prolific thinker and writer, and your works have had a profound impact on me and my career positively over the years. And you’ve really never slowed down. With your most recent venture, Business Acumen Institute, you’ve really started carving out different ways of thinking and leading. Can you get us started and share a few of those needs that you’ve identified, specifically around integrative thinkers and horizontal leaders in organizations?

Steven [00:02:07] I’d be happy to. You know, it’s interesting. When people ask me, like, why do I write or why do I do what I do? And I usually say, well, I have to watch my language here, but it’s because I get aggravated by things. You know, I have sort of an idealized view of the world and then I have a belief in the reality, right? So over the years, and when you train a bunch of different people in product who come from different places, they bring their functional paradigms to the table. They operate where they see things from the functions from which they’ve come. And they come into this role where they’re supposed to look at a bunch of different things, different data, signals, operations, marketing, all these different functions. Right? But they still approach things from this sort of vertical approach.

Steven [00:02:57] And it bothered me over the years that, why can’t we have product people think sort of across and up and down as opposed to that function from which they’ve come? So this has been going on for years and years. And I think, you know, we try to teach this in our product management workshops, right? Anyway, a few years ago, I was doing an onboarding program at one of the big banks, and I saw that there was a guy who had been teaching this course on business acumen in the same training room that I was in. And I looked at his book and I looked at his materials, and he was teaching something about business acumen, but he was teaching more about finance. And I said, “Wait a minute.” If you want to teach people to think differently and introduce them to this idea of building business acumen, then it’s multifaceted, multi-leveled, and it’s not one thing.

Paul [00:03:52] Yeah.

Steven [00:03:52] It’s a manifold thing if that’s the right way to say it, you know what I mean?

Paul [00:03:56] Absolutely.

Steven [00:03:57] And this is the stuff that starts bothering me like, “Well, how can I help? How do I expand my horizons from just training product managers to training people to think like business people?” Others who I had spoken to at the time about this hypothesis of, there’s got to be a better way, said, “Well, product management is business acumen.” And I said, “Yeah, but you know, when you talk about like things like market segmentation, right, you know, you have to aim someplace and that place that you’re aiming has to be receptive enough to hear what your message is.” So if I want to teach business acumen to product managers, it’s only going to resonate with a smaller population. What I had learned through talking to my client friends and things like that, and these are people who are in organizational development and leadership development, is that yeah, there’s something missing in this realm of business and it goes beyond the MBA.

Paul [00:04:50] Yeah.

Steven [00:04:50] Right. The MBA teaches you that there are various components and structures or infrastructures in companies. And not everybody has this innate sense of how things should fit together. The best of the CEOs do. The best of the general managers do, but not everybody across the body of the company. And that’s what sparked me. So I ended up writing this book called The Business Acumen Handbook and people say, “Oh, that’s great, what are you going to do with that?” And I said, “I don’t know.” “Well, maybe I ought to make a course.” Okay, so I’ll make a course. So I worked for about a year and I kept on sharing it with some of my client friends, again, people who will tell me the truth about whether or not something’s got meat to it or, you know, you can bite into. And so I did that and ran some pilots and came up with a program that works. And then I invented a company. So the company is literally a flanker brand company if you will.

Paul [00:05:47] Love it.

Steven [00:05:47] Started out as a, you know, run from one company, but now they are two separate identities and two separate structures. So anyway, that’s sort of where I went to. I hope that’s not too long-winded of an answer.

Paul [00:05:57] No, that’s perfect. Now you’ve given me a ton to unpack there, and I think, you know, one of the things that has struck me is coming from a big four consulting background, getting my MBA, and then finding my way into product from that angle, a lot of what you talk about reflects my personal journey. So I appreciate that insight a lot. I think having that background, being able to run pro forma financial models and being able to put together an internal rate of return, and understanding that while vision and strategy and building a delightful experience are important parts of product management, there also needs to be a business case to provide oxygen to keep the thing alive. And understanding that piece of it is really important. So let’s talk about the Business Acumen Handbook and some of the quickstart guides that you’ve started to release. The most recent work of yours that I’ve read is Building a Business Case. It’s helped me sort of transform my thinking around building a true business analysis practice within the product management space. Do you have any more vision or ideas in the works for further quick start guides? What’s the strategy there?

Steven [00:06:58] There are a couple of things afoot here. You know, first of all, when I wrote the desk reference, the original version has like 800 pages in it. Which is, like, now it’s scary. It’s like, who the heck is going to lug around a three-and-a-half pound book or something like that?

Paul [00:07:12] It is the desk.

Steven [00:07:14] Well, that’s what it is. But nobody has desks anymore because everything is virtual. And so I have to think differently about consumption of information. First of all, there’s a great body of knowledge because business is business. So let’s remember that. And then if I’m able to decompose pieces of business, I think that can be helped. And so decomposing pieces of the puzzle, I think is helpful. There are two vitally important documents that business people need to be able to master, and it doesn’t matter what functional area you’re from. One is a business case and one is the strategy. And actually, the strategy comes first. The business case comes later.

Steven [00:07:54] But for me, business cases have been, you know, I’m a finance guy by trade and I’ve written a zillion business cases for all kinds of things throughout my career. And I have always taken to them like a fish to water. It’s just a natural way for me to analyze how an investment opportunity ought to pan out and how it needs to integrate within the fabric of an ongoing company. So that’s one thing. The next book is called How to Create a Winning Strategy. But these are booklets. These are how-to guides. So it’s almost as if I could explain the methodology and the rationale behind a specific document and provide almost a templated approach, like, I don’t want people to fill in the blanks for these things. These are thinking person’s documents. But if I can provide a bite-size enough piece of each of them, maybe I can contribute in some way toward, you know, corporate effectiveness, on the bigger picture thing.

Steven [00:08:50] And this book, if you will, is, I’ve written about strategy so many times, it should have been easy. I said, “Well, I’ll just have it done, you know, three months ago.” Well, it’s now, you know, 40 something pages long or 50 pages long, and I’m still not done because the way in which I want to explain things to people, like, how do you explain a vision? I am sick and tired of the word sometimes because it’s almost like, you know, you’re telling people to hallucinate about things that are not realistic. And goal, what’s a goal? Well, you know, everybody says the words, but when it comes to doing the work, people don’t know how to actually do the work. They’re too concerned with how to like fill in the blanks of the template. And when they have to come down to measuring what they’re supposed to be planning out or doing, they’re not necessarily achieving results. And listen, this is not a fait accompli. It’s not the thing that’s happening all the time. But it happens enough to bother me.

Paul [00:09:49] Yeah, I think what you’re getting at is there’s a lot of talk in the industry about strategy versus tactics. And we assume both to be well-known and we assume both to be true. And while as a community, we’ve gotten really good at strategy and shooting, you know, moonshots, but when it comes down to the brass tacks of running a business and understanding, “what does success look like and how do we build a team around it?” Those real, nitty-gritty, tactical problems are difficult to solve and they require a degree of rigor. That’s rare. If that’s what I’m understanding you’re saying.

Steven [00:10:23] There’s a degree of truth to that. The other part is that we get stuck in, you know, going down these rabbit holes every day, that if we had the proper strategic context, perhaps we would reconsider what we were doing. Or perhaps other people should be dealing with things that people like product people or others aren’t dealing with, right?

Paul [00:10:43] Yeah.

Steven [00:10:43] So I think that becomes a huge challenge. But again, strategy versus tactic, you know, these are just words. It’s like, you know, if you’re playing football and you may have a play plan, the minute you step foot on the field, everything is off, like snap the ball and all these pieces are in play. Now, you know, people like quarterbacks and people who understand what their assignments are figure out how to deal with it during that specific time of play and then they come back and regroup, right. So that agility of play is critical and how I think people need to think strategically. But when you get sucked down into the whole of your day-to-day, every meeting and every email and things that we do, we are not as efficient as we could be. And I think, it’s not that I can change human behavior, but how can we figure out how to get 10% more productivity out of our day-to-day lives by thinking more strategically about what it is we’re doing and how does it contribute to the goals of the organization and what’s the noise?

Paul [00:11:45] Yeah. I’m feeling a bit seen at the moment. That definitely describes a few items that I’d like to check off my personal checklist. But I want to shift gears just slightly and talk about how we get this training into organizations. So the problem that you’ve identified and the way that you’ve implemented it, targeting consumption for those busy people who need it most, you’ve latched onto this idea of nurturing cohorts in businesses laterally and helping bring this to light in ways that isn’t just a mercenary stick approach to skilling up or leveling up or resumé boosting or, you know, even up-and-out kind of culture. When we’re talking about bringing this to organizations and bringing this to teams, what’s the thing that you think is going to level up the next generation of leaders in organizations most effectively?

Steven [00:12:30] Well, this is what’s interesting about the fortuitousness of the Business Acumen Institute, and the timing seems to be everything. Most leadership development programs tend to target higher-level people who are moving towards C-suite, perhaps. And that can be problematic for other people. And from what I have learned, this category of person called an emerging leader or manager is sort of my sweet spot. And it doesn’t matter what function that you’re working in. You can work in operations, you can work in supply chain, you can work in marketing. It doesn’t really matter, but there’s pockets of excellence.

Steven [00:13:07] And what is it that the executives are actually looking for? I was reading something, and I don’t know if I’m paraphrasing or coming up with my own word, but there was this term, “the exceptional generalist.” And it’s so interesting because, like years and years ago when, you know, all the management consultants and the Peter Drucker’s of the world, you know, were talking about, “these are the managers, these are the knowledge leaders,” and things like that, right? These are the middle managers. And I think that the middle managers have been lost.

Paul [00:13:35] Yeah.

Steven [00:13:35] And to me, it’s like, what happened? Where did these people go? Well, maybe companies decided they wanted to flatten. They didn’t want fluff in the middle. They don’t want supervisors of people. They want leaders, you know, people who are supervising others, to do work. And I think that, well, you can’t coach and develop talent unless you have enough people who have the mindset to be able to do so. Right. And so that is a problem, I think. And it’s something that I aim to solve. And I know from my clients that this group, these cohorts, are really emerging inside of major companies. And I’ve heard it from companies from automobile to technology to, you know, it’s interesting, processing of grains. I’ve heard it from H.R. departments. I’ve heard it from everywhere. And to me, I think this is a huge, huge opportunity.

Paul [00:14:34] Yeah. From our experience working with clients as well, there’s definitely a middle role that is somewhat neglected. And I think one of the things that you’re speaking to is a paradox where if all leaders focus on our top performers, they’re the ones who go to conferences, the ones who get training, they’re the ones who get exposure to the C-suite, then you’re going to get incremental gains and you’ll have a self-fulfilling prophecy where the people who you identify as top performers get the exposure and the opportunities. But when you do focus on the team, the cohort, there’s a much greater delta over raising up those who might not be perceived as “top performers” in air quotes. And the delta there isn’t incremental, it’s transformational. You raise the whole team up to a much higher level than you ever would by focusing in on top-performing individuals. Is that part of this, too? Is that a fair reflection?

Steven [00:15:21] Yeah, I think so. And I think also there’s sort of this environment that I think senior executives need to create. There’s this nurturing or cultivation of talent that I think is really vital in terms of, how do we create this environment? We were talking about this hospitableness of an environment.

Paul [00:15:39] I love this. Yeah.

Steven [00:15:40] You know, how do, I know it sounds really strange, but how do you cradle people?

Paul [00:15:43] Yeah.

Steven [00:15:44] Right. Well, you’re not cradling people, you’re basically taking this group of people and you’re saying, “I think that there’s value in what you can bring to an organization.” I was interviewing a guy, he was at one of the big Canadian banks a bunch of years ago, and he talked about the fact that they had talent scouts. What’s a talent scout? Like in a sports team, a talent scout would be, you’re out in the farm teams and you’re looking at, you know, pitchers and catchers and people who may have talent to go to the big leagues. Right. Well, that’s what they did. And it wasn’t the fact that “oh, I have people running around.” It’s that senior executives were tuned in to those who, they were integrative thinkers, they were collaborators, they understood how to work the system. They understood how to, you know, develop some of the political capital that was necessary. And these are some of the key dimensions of business acumen, right, that go beyond, you know, understanding your markets and understanding your customers. It’s about how they operate and their mindset. Those things are critical.

Steven [00:16:44] And so those people were identified and brought into a fold, if you will, created this place to be nurtured. And then what happened? Well, they were offered a unique set of rotations. Why? Because in the bank they said, “Well if I want people to see things more broadly, I have to give them these assignments.” So they go to one, one and a half years, they do three or four rotations, and they were overseen, if you will, as a cohort. And they started to bring people through. Now, this is again, this is a bank that had at the time about 80,000 employees. And certainly, there was enough money to do this kind of work. But those are some of the primary examples that I take in saying, it’s not me, just, you know, like whatever, doing something into the wind and saying, “well, you know, this is just my aspiration.” You take examples from companies that do really good work.

Paul [00:17:38] Yeah.

Steven [00:17:38] And then the other problem is not all companies sustain it over the long haul. It gets lost, you know, they have financial pressures and all, then we’re going to go down my other pathway of like…

Paul [00:17:48] Yeah.

Steven [00:17:48] I’m going to get grumpy.

Paul [00:17:50] One of the quotes that you mentioned in getting ready for this show that stuck with me and I’ve actually implemented some of these ideas just in the days that we’ve spoken before, you said, “training doesn’t stick unless your environment is sticky.” And one of the things that I took away from that is the idea that we take people at face value as a resume, as a job to be done, as a client that needs to be happy. And we set these eager, high-performing, super-talented professionals loose, but don’t think about the fact that there is a human component to it and that training does need to be a cultural touchstone and not just a checkbox on an onboarding checklist. I want to dig into this idea of corporate hospitality a little bit more. What should we be thinking about as leaders?

Steven [00:18:34] Well, you know, training provides a pathway. You think of, you know, you have a hallway or something like that, and you want everybody to be able to walk down the hallway. And some people come into the hallway at different places. But when you’re walking down the hallway, you get to the end, everybody’s gone through having passed through the same space. And you absorb. You absorb things from your environment and everything else. When you come out at one point you say, “okay, now what? As we walk through the door, what’s next?”

Steven [00:18:59] Well, if people go through a training class and they’ve gone down the hallway and everybody speaks the same language, supposedly, right, then what are you supposed to do with it? And I will often say to executives who are sponsoring my programs, “Are you going to be able to stand up in front of the room before we start and say, ‘here’s what we’re doing, here’s why we’re investing in this, and here’s what’s expected from you at the end?'” Unfortunately, what happens, and it happens way too often for my taste, is that people just sort of say, “Well, you know, I got work to do, you know?” But what I do know is that when there are executives who will sponsor and support and provide opportunities to apply this, then you have what I call stickiness. Now maybe I didn’t invent the word or anything like that, but it’s the stuff that gets more easily absorbed into the fabric of how people do business.

Steven [00:19:46] And regardless of the function, and, you know, you could be talking about product management, you could just be talking about business acumen, there’s got to be ways to apply what you learn. And this even goes back to the other books, right? We can teach you the basics, but you have to use the basics. You can get an MBA, but you have to use the MBA. Okay. I’ve got to make a side comment. Right. I was a financial analyst, but I took my degree in finance. I was going part-time. Every time that I learned something new in the class, even though my teachers were ick sometimes, I realized, “Oh my goodness, this is a really interesting thing to do.” And so it enhanced the way I think about things. And all I want to do is help people to think differently, to think more systemically, and to think more about the context of what it is that they’re trying to do and what they want the organization to be able to do, how they’re going to contribute. So stickiness is not just that the executives have a responsibility to create this hospitable environment, but for the people who are participating is, don’t just go there because you have to go there, go because you believe there’s something here.

Paul [00:20:50] Yeah.

Steven [00:20:50] And I’ll tell you another. And this has happened several times, but somebody made a comment on an evaluation form, “Yeah, but I already took this in MBA school.” Then why are you here and why don’t you participate and share with others what you learned? This is not single-threaded stuff. This is cross-functional across organizational stuff. So you want to silo yourselves off and say, “I already learned this,” and harrumph your way forward. Good, knock yourself out. But you’re not a corporate team player. Team players help other people to learn and grow. Sorry. Then I’m like getting all into a zone.

Paul [00:21:18] No, I love it. I think that that’s part of the culture that’s missing. It’s when we’re all cutthroat, we’re all looking for what’s next. I think the paradox is it doesn’t make you better. It makes us all more mediocre. We all become less effective as a team. But we’re there’s that delta, I think that those people who have the skills giving back and creating feedback loops, which is one of the things that I want to kind of get to here. One of the pieces that I think you’ve identified in high-performing corporate hospitality-minded teams is that there is a piece of the nurturing, the cradling, as you said, the feedback loop that helps leaders create the culture. It’s not a one-and-done. You don’t go to a seminar and fix all your problems, there’s an ongoing process. And I wonder if you can talk a bit about how people should be reflecting and sharing back to counter the harrumphing through.

Steven [00:22:02] You mean like people who go through programs and stuff like that?

Paul [00:22:05] Yeah. How do we share back to our teams?

Steven [00:22:06] You know, I was just talking about this the other day with a client and it had to do with like, you know, “what do we do?” And I said, “well, you know, maybe what you all work on is that you have these teams of people, and every quarter you do a market update. You have a standard way of consolidating all of your insights and research.” “Why would you do it once a quarter?” I said, “because if your market is changing, you know, at some pace, right, and you miss a signal and you know that you have to do an update… “Not that, “oh my God, I have to go do an update.” But imagine what you will learn from doing that. Imagine when other people get to share with one another what they have learned. Whoever gets a chance to really just sit around the room once a quarter, once a month, whatever, and say, “Hey, how about that new state of the market update?” State of the market is one of the things that we talk about. What about something like a business health or a product health update? Now, most companies do like quarterly business reviews and stuff like that. Well, you can drive them down more deeply into the organization.

Steven [00:23:03] Earlier in my career, one of the things I did was community meetings. What did I do? Well, you bring people from different departments to a room early in the morning. This is when I used to work at AT&T. This was great, right? I bring all the coolest food on the planet, bad food. But we would do show and tell. “Tell us what you’ve been working on.” You know, when you work in AT&T and you have the Bell Laboratories group, whoever can remember what they are, you know, you have great developers and engineers. You have great QA people. You’ve got really outstanding marketing people and ops people. And they come in and they talk about their stuff. People felt they belonged and people got a chance to hear and they learned. And then there’s a community like why we’re here. Like different people keep their fingers on the pulse of things that they’re interested in. Okay? And when people get a chance to share that kind of stuff, it’s really great. And that’s part of culture, that’s part of community building, you know, sort of the zeitgeist of an organization.

Steven [00:23:56] I think that that’s stuff that, I don’t know if it’s missing, I don’t have enough data to say, you know, “all companies suck in this way.” I think that, you know, many companies are probably doing a great job. I think that there are a lot of companies who could do a whole lot better. I think they’ve streamlined things to the point and pared down resources to the point… Here’s where I get on my soapbox about, you know, I know it’s more important to return money to shareholders, but I’ve been listening to executives, I’ve been listening to earnings calls and I have to tell you something, that buying back $27 billion of stock, you know, how about investing a few more billion dollars in some people? How about investing a few more billion dollars into the educational infrastructure? And this is, you know, whether it’s a political stance or not, I think that we are not investing enough in people development inside of these corporations that are producing huge amounts of cash.

Paul [00:24:44] Yeah, I love that idea. I think it’s crucial to hear, especially right now at the moment in time we find ourselves at as business leaders. I want to wrap up with a few last questions and I hesitate to ask this next one because it probably falls into the category of one of those empty words that we throw around that have kind of lost meaning. But we ask all of our guests and I want to ask you too just to see what happens. What do you think is the best definition of innovation? What does that word mean to you?

Steven [00:25:08] Well, you know, it’s a conversation I have fairly frequently. So let me tell you about things that I think innovation shouldn’t be.

Paul [00:25:15] Okay.

Steven [00:25:16] A lot of people have associated a product development process with innovation. They call it the innovation funnel, the innovation this, the innovation that. I think they just, they love the word innovation. Okay. If a company wants to creatively advance, they’ve got to find some new ways to do business. If you stay with one core business, ultimately your business will become a commodity, become just functionally complete that anybody else can replicate at any place. Even my Sequent Learning business. Okay, it’s a 20-year-old company now.

Paul [00:25:46] Yeah.

Steven [00:25:46] You know, how many companies are doing product management training now? Blah, blah, blah. Right. So anybody can take a basic product management class. I don’t care as much about them. I like the business, but I have to have advanced programs. I’ve had to create more content that has more applicability. The development of the Business Acumen Institute was an innovative approach to solving a problem that I thought. But there’s sort of the incremental way of doing things because you’ll learn a few things along the way. And then, you know, there’s the academic thing of the breakthrough innovation, the creative way of, you know, solving a problem that nobody knew that they had. Beats the heck out of me because only a small number of people are going to be able to do that. But when executives say to the employees, “you have to be more innovative and you’ve got to come up with these breakthroughs.” Like, they don’t just fall out of the sky! And nobody’s doing enough work, you know. We’re, like, everybody’s like got heads down, like, how am I going to be more innovative when I’ve got, like, you know, 32 reports to file by the end of the week? And so if you’re out in the market, if you’re out in the field, if you understand the domain, if you see the things that are going on and something hits you on the head and you say, “why are they doing it that way?”

Paul [00:26:51] That’s the question.

Steven [00:26:53] That’s your source of creativity. And in my years in product, most of the time I was in business process automation. So you’re watching people do stuff and you say, “Why?” Because when people are stuck doing things their own way, that’s great. So you look at things from an outside-in point of view, maybe you come up with a more innovative way to solve a problem that becomes a better value prop for your company and a better way for a client to do their work. But it’s not innate. You know, just because somebody says you’ve got to go be innovative doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to go be innovative.

Paul [00:27:19] Yeah. I love that take. That’s a great answer. I think it’s real. It’s definitely meeting people where they’re at. Last question, where can people find you? We’ll put links to your businesses in the show notes. Any books or conferences or courses coming up on the horizon to keep an eye out for?

Steven [00:27:33] First of all, I am the host of a new podcast called Masters of Business, so hopefully, people can go to that. But they can find me on two of my companies, one is called Business Acumen Institute. So it’s Business-Acumen.com or the product management company SequentLearning.com. But other than that, you can find me on LinkedIn, you can connect with me and I’m always here to help.

Paul [00:27:55] Stephen, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to join today and help us learn about some of the things you’ve been up to.

Steven [00:28:01] Thank you for having me. It’s really great. I like doing this.

Paul [00:28:04] Outstanding. Well, cheers.

Paul [00:28:08] Well, that’s it for today. In line with our goals of transparency and listening, we really want to hear from you. Sean and I are committed to reading every piece of feedback that we get so please leave a comment or a rating wherever you’re listening to this podcast. Not only does it help us continue to improve, but it also helps the show climb up the rankings so that we can help other listeners move, touch, and inspire the world just like you’re doing. Thanks, everyone. We’ll see you next episode.